Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless?

steve
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*CRUMPET BOY*

Having trouble understanding Jane

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Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? May 31, 2015 18:06:50 GMT 1 Pipperoo and AForestFan like this

Quote

Post by steve on May 31, 2015 18:06:50 GMT 1

jumeteor
No misunderstanding. I just used the nirvana link you posted as an example.

I think it's safe to say the best version of the source is always going to be the source itself unless the source has been damaged or destroyed.

Pipperoo
Like Julien's said, it's going to be a long while before the pool is cleaned & perhaps cure-concerts is the ideal vehicle to gauge the best gen, but I also know that uabf has to already find time to update when he can. Nonetheless, the base is there, so why re-invent the wheel?

The one thing that can be done is to just not pass on lossy shows unless they are the source. AForestFan taped the Tampa show on the 4Tour in an mp3 format. He did a terrific job too & it's still listed as the only (known) source on cure-concerts. I also recall the whining of many when he posted it, but hey, he got it down & he didn't have to share it, but he did praise2

But the beauty of cure-concerts is that it lists the format the master was captured in, so you know the best (known) version.

I would challenge anyone to list up all the currently best circulating gens of Zillo 2002.

Bottom line is just not to bugger about with the original file sets before sharing/ trading them.

Tear out the pages with all the bad news

jumeteor
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Posts: 458

Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? May 31, 2015 18:41:58 GMT 1

Quote

Post by jumeteor on May 31, 2015 18:41:58 GMT 1

I don't think there's a way to stop the mp3 on the blogs. Many people don't care about sound quality, the blogs are for them, that's their problem. But it does not mean that people who wants the best quality do not have to organize themselves to have a clean pool with the best available for each source.

jumeteor
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Posts: 458

Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? May 31, 2015 19:08:09 GMT 1 steve likes this

Quote

Post by jumeteor on May 31, 2015 19:08:09 GMT 1

May 31, 2015 18:06:50 GMT 1 steve said:

I would challenge anyone to list up all the currently best circulating gens of Zillo 2002.

AUD DAT A.D. Sony TCD-D7 + Core Sound Binaurals -

AUD DAT D.Su. - -

AUD DAT De.Th. Sony TCD-D100 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD DAT (364) Sony TCD-D7 + Soundman OKM-II Rock -

AUD DAT Gu.P. Sony TCD-D8 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD DAT (124) Sony TCD-D3 + Soundman OKM-II Rock M -

AUD DAT S.Z. Sony PCM-M1 + Soundman OKM-II Rock -

AUD DAT T.C. Sony TCD-D7 + Sony ECM-909 -

AUD DAT Y.P. Sony TCD-D8 + Marantz EM8 -

AUD MD A.D. Sony MZ-R 50 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD A.P. Sony MZ-R 700 + Sony ECM-TS 125 -

AUD MD B.T. Sharp MD-MT 190 + MM-MCSM-4 Mini Cardioid -

AUD MD E.S. Sony MZ-R35 + Sony ECM-907 or MZ-R30 ?

AUD MD F.P. Sony MZ-R 900 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD J.F. Aiwa AM-F72 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD J.J.M.L. Sony MZ-N 707 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD J.N.P. Sony MZ-R 909 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD J.M.R. - same as J.R.

AUD MD J.W. Sony MZ-R 70 + Sony ECM-717 sometimes mislabeled as A.W.

AUD MD K.B. Aiwa AM-F80 + Sony ECM-717 -

AUD MD (103) Sharp MD-MT88 + Sony ECM-TS 125 -

AUD MD M.P. Sharp MD-MT 15 + Aiwa CM-T7 -

AUD MD P.L. - -

AUD MD S.M. Aiwa AM-F5 + Sony ECM-717 -
AUD - - - CD "Fight the Sickness"

VID - G.L. - from left

VID - H.U. - -

VID Hi8 Sv.S. Grundig LC 875 GE from left

You have a perfect example of what could be improved in cure-concerts.

Among these 20+ sources, which ones are circulating widely? Don't have a clue but I guess most of these are still only in the hands of the taper and his two friends. So let's separate the circulating sources and their gen and list the other ones as "uncirculating" without specifying gen.

Edit: Sorry about the double post, I was with my tablet and I can't modify anymore one of these.

Last Edit: May 31, 2015 19:09:26 GMT 1 by jumeteor

steve Big Hand random bootleg CRUMPET BOY Having trouble understanding Jane Posts: 56,443 Member is Online	Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? May 31, 2015 19:17:47 GMT 1 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by steve on May 31, 2015 19:17:47 GMT 1 No problem. Double post's now gone
	Tear out the pages with all the bad news

jumeteor Pornography member Posts: 458	Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 1, 2015 17:47:59 GMT 1 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by jumeteor on Jun 1, 2015 17:47:59 GMT 1 That's nice, you erased my double post but you didn't tell me what you thought about the Zillo 2002 example.

steve Big Hand random bootleg CRUMPET BOY Having trouble understanding Jane Posts: 56,443 Member is Online	Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 1, 2015 17:52:32 GMT 1 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by steve on Jun 1, 2015 17:52:32 GMT 1 That's because I didn't see any gens/ lineage associated with any of them
	Tear out the pages with all the bad news

jumeteor
Pornography member

Posts: 458

Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 1, 2015 18:16:19 GMT 1

Quote

Post by jumeteor on Jun 1, 2015 18:16:19 GMT 1

Let's clarify it. I just copy pasted the cure-concerts content, nothing more.

Then you should read this part: "You have a perfect example of what could be improved in cure-concerts.
Among these 20+ sources, which ones are circulating widely? Don't have a clue but I guess most of these are still only in the hands of the taper and his two friends. So let's separate the circulating sources and their gen and list the other ones as "uncirculating" without specifying gens. "

Deleted Posts: 0	Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 1, 2015 23:35:58 GMT 1 steve and nausearockpig like this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 23:35:58 GMT 1 People who convert FLAc to MP3, then back to FLAC and list it as FLAC should be forced to listen to Depeche Mode forever.

rosered The Top member it will always be like this Posts: 699	Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 2, 2015 5:54:51 GMT 1 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by rosered on Jun 2, 2015 5:54:51 GMT 1 why would anyone go through the trouble of converting flac to mp3 and back to flac, whats the meaning of this?

nausearockpig
Wild Mood Swings member

in search of Brisbane 21 August 1992 CT version

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Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 2, 2015 6:10:46 GMT 1 steve, eduardo, and 1 more like this

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Post by nausearockpig on Jun 2, 2015 6:10:46 GMT 1

Jun 2, 2015 5:54:51 GMT 1 rosered said:

why would anyone go through the trouble of converting flac to mp3 and back to flac, whats the meaning of this?

may not be the same person doing f>m then m>f....

Person 1 gets FLACs and enjoys them as FLAC or converts to MP3 for self use &/or intentional distribution in MP3 format (this may or may not be with intention to pollute the trading pool - they simply may have passed on the MP3s saying "hey these are MP3 but I have the FLAC if you want them cos they're better")...

Person 2 gets MP3s from person 1 then encodes them to FLAC either to intentionally pollute the trading pool or by not knowing that FLACing a file can't "undo" the damage done by converting to MP3....

Person 2 then distributes his/her "FLAC" files polluting the trading pool....

If you have a lead on Brisbane 21 August 1992 - CT version, for the love of Bob, let me know. Please!

jumeteor
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Posts: 458

Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 2, 2015 7:56:30 GMT 1 steve likes this

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Post by jumeteor on Jun 2, 2015 7:56:30 GMT 1

I sometimes do a mp3->flac conversion. I have a bunch of mp3 cure shows that do not sound right (wrong speed, low volume). After years searching for a lossless source without success, i work on the mp3 set to correct pitch and/or volume with Audacity. To avoid further compression, I have to create a flac set with audacity. But all these lossy recordings are in the same folder and no way will I mix them up with lossless recordings.

Deleted

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Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 2, 2015 8:23:24 GMT 1

Quote

Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 8:23:24 GMT 1

Jun 2, 2015 7:56:30 GMT 1 jumeteor said:

I sometimes do a mp3->flac conversion. I have a bunch of mp3 cure shows that do not sound right (wrong speed, low volume). After years searching for a lossless source without success, i work on the mp3 set to correct pitch and/or volume with Audacity. To avoid further compression, I have to create a flac set with audacity. But all these lossy recordings are in the same folder and no way will I mix them up with lossless recordings.

I do a similar job using Sony Audio Master Suite/iZotope/dBpoweramp ...........

uabf
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Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 4, 2015 9:12:16 GMT 1 steve likes this

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Post by uabf on Jun 4, 2015 9:12:16 GMT 1

About the Zillo 2002 example:

What makes a recording uncirculated? So what qualifies it to be on the circulating recordings list? Taper + 2 Friends means it's not circulating? Think that a silly point if you also make it an criteria how many people have the recording. Today it's just the taper and his two friends in a year it's maybe 3 more people. When doing such a project you had to list every existing recording to make a sense.

About the list of circulating recordings in general:

I do have a few Master > first digital copy versions of concerts and from the same concert and same master tape have Ddddd copies that have been touched with equalizer aloing it's lineage that have a better sound than the master tape has. So there is infact a point for having an resource of the various existing versions. But i think it's getting more and more difficult to do that as it gets much easier for everyone to take any recording he have and use any pro or non-pro software / app and improving the sound.

I think such a project couldn't work without audio comparsion so when doing such a project you either have to rent a big server and with the list you have to make available samples (Lossles for lossles sources) for every listed recording, or have to rent a much bigger server and make available there all existing cure recordings so the community of traders can upload / download all existing versions. But because of various reasons (i could write down a longer list, trust me) this would never be complete, and not just because it's a lot of work.

But what about it? The Ebay Sellers, FLAC to MP3 bloggers don't care about generation, lineage nor will they ever if someone does a list of circulationg versions so i don't think this won't clean up the Cure trading circles in any way. Tapers and Traders care about that stuff anyway, those others wouldn't even take notice about this kind of project. But the ebay sellsers would just use it to get an idea which of the recordings would be the best to sell

www.cure-concerts.de

Feel free to send details about Cure concert recordings to be added to cure-concerts.de

jumeteor
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Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 4, 2015 17:58:58 GMT 1

Quote

Post by jumeteor on Jun 4, 2015 17:58:58 GMT 1

Thanks for your very interesting extensive answer.

Jun 4, 2015 9:12:16 GMT 1 uabf said:

About the Zillo 2002 example:

What makes a recording uncirculated? So what qualifies it to be on the circulating recordings list? Taper + 2 Friends means it's not circulating? Think that a silly point if you also make it an criteria how many people have the recording. Today it's just the taper and his two friends in a year it's maybe 3 more people. When doing such a project you had to list every existing recording to make a sense.

When you built a recordings list for your website, I guess that you had several cases:

1) it was shared online.
2) it is being traded widely between traders without any restriction but has not been shared online.
3) the taper contacted you to tell you "I recorded that show" but the recording has never been traded out, maybe to his two friends but that's all.
4) There's a rumor about a recording but nothing more. You don't know if it really exists, who the taper is, if the recording is complete, etc.

In cases 1 or 2, to me, it is a "circulating" show. In cases 3 or 4, it is uncirculating. Does it make sense?

About the list of circulating recordings in general:

I do have a few Master > first digital copy versions of concerts and from the same concert and same master tape have Ddddd copies that have been touched with equalizer aloing it's lineage that have a better sound than the master tape has. So there is infact a point for having an resource of the various existing versions. But i think it's getting more and more difficult to do that as it gets much easier for everyone to take any recording he have and use any pro or non-pro software / app and improving the sound.

I think such a project couldn't work without audio comparsion so when doing such a project you either have to rent a big server and with the list you have to make available samples (Lossles for lossles sources) for every listed recording, or have to rent a much bigger server and make available there all existing cure recordings so the community of traders can upload / download all existing versions. But because of various reasons (i could write down a longer list, trust me) this would never be complete, and not just because it's a lot of work.

About the master not being the best source available:

in the other communities that I frequent, all remastered versions are not listed, only raw sources are.
It can happen that a master sounds worse or is less complete (especially in case of old tapes that were deterioriated) than a higher gen recording. In that case, both are listed.
About the comparison, of course, it is a huge work, it won't be done in few weeks. But other communities did this in few years so I think it is feasible. But that's sure it asks traders willing to clean the trading pool. If people don't feel concerned, than we can't do much.

But what about it? The Ebay Sellers, FLAC to MP3 bloggers don't care about generation, lineage nor will they ever if someone does a list of circulationg versions so i don't think this won't clean up the Cure trading circles in any way. Tapers and Traders care about that stuff anyway, those others wouldn't even take notice about this kind of project. But the ebay sellsers would just use it to get an idea which of the recordings would be the best to sell

I think I said earlier in this thread that mp3 bloggers and Ebay sellers don't give a **** about sound quality, lossless and gens. The future hypothetical guide would aim people like you and me who wants to listen to the Cure recordings in the best available version, not bloggers or bootleggers. The idea is not to cut the mp3 sharing on blogs or Ebay sellings (honestly, I think you can't), it is to permit people who wants quality to know what exists, what is available and what is not.

What do you think?

Last Edit: Jun 4, 2015 18:04:01 GMT 1 by jumeteor

uabf
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Posts: 209

Cleaning up The Cure. Lossy or lossless? Jun 4, 2015 21:05:22 GMT 1

Quote

Post by uabf on Jun 4, 2015 21:05:22 GMT 1

for the recordings, i think 1, 2 and 3 count as in circulation ... at least to me.
Sure case 4 is speculative and should be handled as this (on my website listed in grey to make clear it's unknown if the info is real or false)

I understand your point about just listing the raw masters but not the remasters but wouldn't that make that list quite incomplete? It's fact that many remasters are made, even from the mastertapers himself so on one hand a list of all circulating recordings is to be made to have a reference whats in circulation but the (often widely) circulating remasters aren't included?
Including remasters shouldn't be a knock-out criteria for the list but in the end whats the difference to the list of recordings on my website then? It's for sure worth to have a list of Cure recordings with the best available version but when the best version is a remastered version it wouldn't be a usefull list when you don't have this best one in, no?

Another point one has to think about how to be choose what is the best version. In days with many tapers using high end equipment and recordings sound excellent how to judge which one is the best. Think there are different opinions for each recording just because of the varying sounds. So i think sound samples would be necessary.

www.cure-concerts.de

Feel free to send details about Cure concert recordings to be added to cure-concerts.de

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