"gothic" this, "gothic" that... What seems really hard for some people to understand and respect is that The Cure has never been a goth band and they always rejected that label. I listened to gothic bands and I assume anyone who did or do will be okay with me : The Cure are not a gothic band, their music has definitely not a gothic style at all...
The Cure explore emotions, feelings, and feelings are not always positive, colourfully, happy ones. If exploring sadness, despair and anger (amongst emotions the same we do for hapiness, fun, etc) is enough to be labelled gothic, then nobody can talk about the emotions diversity without being gothic... This is stupid...
This had to be said...
Are "Let's Go To Bed", "The Walk", "The Lovecats", "Inbetween Days", "Why Can't I Be You ?", "Hot Hot Hot !!!", "Hey You !!!", etc, etc, etc. Gothic songs ?? C'mon, that's completely ridiculous...
Understandably, there is a thread on this. The Cure have certainly more than dabbled in goth without a doubt. Faith, Pronography & even Disintegration were very goth leaning releases. Even Seventeen Seconds was borderline goth. Proto-goth if you like. Yes they deny being a goth band (now). But it's not always been the case. And genre certainly has sod all to do with the song themes but rather the style. I am The Sisters Of Mercy fan & Eldritch has tried to distance himself from the goth genre. But there is no denying that much of their material was at the forefront of goth. The same is so with The Cure.
So just curious what percentage of Goth music does a band have to play before they are considered a Goth band? 100%? 90%? 75%? Curious. Not that I think they are (they aren't) but we can't deny a LOT of their songs are Goth. Even Friday I'm in Love is kind of Goth. Let's face it the only day he's happy is Friday. Or do we just go by what the band says they are (which in The Cure's case is "we cannot be labeled")
The thing is simple : people who want to dream The Cure as a goth band, must learn what goth is before to speak, what is the goth universe, goth fantasies etc, and listen to gothic bands, and the, to listen to The Cure songs, and then, that person will know, for sure, Cure is definitely not a gothic band at all.
Do The Cure sound like Christian Death ? Does them sing like Death In June, like Virgin Prunes, like Bauhaus, like Sisters Of Mercy, and all that stuff ? Do they share the same universe ? Or are their songs and universe completely different ?
The answer's really easy, clear as the water, c'mon ! People just have to be honest and recognize that's the day and the night.
By the way, Wikipedia is certainly not a reference in the Rock entertainment, and it is not even a real encyclopedia and even people mentionned in it cannot easily change wrong things wrote about them. They sometimes only succeed in being bannish from any modification of her/his page !
Now The Cure say they are not a goth band, so they are not ! This is it. Independently to the fact they don't sound like a gothic band, they don't share the same universe and fantasies than gothic bands, this is a matter of respect. People know what they are and what they are not, one person is not allowed to decide what another one is if that other person says s-he is not. That's that simple. This is called respect.
Robert might want to send an email to Wikipedia: First sentence when you type in Gothic Rock?
"Gothic rock (alternately called goth-rock or goth) is a style of rock music that emerged from post-punk in the late 1970s. The first post-punk bands which shifted towards dark music with gothic overtones include Siouxsie and the Banshees,[1][2] Joy Division,[1][2][3] Bauhaus,[1][2] and the Cure.[1][2]"
"Gothic rock (alternately called goth-rock or goth) is a style of rock music that emerged from post-punk in the late 1970s."
That is wrong ... English people called the post punk music "New Wave" (meaning the wave that succeeded to the Punk Wave), and Gothic mouvement came much later. Before it, there was the Cold Wave ("Cars" from Gary Newman, for instance, was a Cold Wave song, and it is definitely not a gothic song). Now let's remember that the Punk wave came from England, and the first wave of bands born from Punk were English too... I mean I think England knows what it's talking about the meaning of the New Wave bands.
@kiwifan interesting. You state The Cure say they are not a goth band & yet you cite The Sisters Of Mercy as a reference to goth bands in a previous post when Eldritch has also stated The Sisters are not a goth band. Don't get me wrong here. The Cure are not a goth band....NOW. But they were very much a part of the goth movement in the early to mid eighties & even now still veer towards the goth end of the spectrum in terms of style. Fact of the matter is that there are plenty of goths in The Cure's fanbase & so it stands to reason that they are labelled as such. & it's not entirely incorrect. & you don't have to write songs about death & graveyards etc to qualify as a goth band. You'll know that if you actually listen to Bauhaus & Alien Sex Fiend, goths also have songs about theatres & fighter planes. Post punk & new wave are virtually the same thing. I AM English (& a fan of The Cure &, completely & unashamedly, a Goth) & grew up with new wave which did actually form the basis of goth. Joy Division being a case in point. Oh, & punk didn't come from England. Patti Smith, Iggy & The Stooges, The Runaways, & MC5 all came before English punk bands. But that's a different topic. Back on the goth thing, even Robert has announced encores as "the goth section" at The Cure shows. So if he wants to deny it, he's not really helping himself any is he?
Don't get me wrong here. The Cure are not a goth band....NOW. But they were very much a part of the goth movement in the early to mid eighties & even now still veer towards the goth end of the spectrum in terms of style.
Sorry Steve, but definitively not ! I know some people think because of the Faith or the Pornography albums, The Cure has been a goth band, and I was thinking about those albums too while I was saying (and I say it again) The Cure are definitely not a gothic band and never were ! Neither in their music nor their style.
Sorry but 1st Goth mouvement came later, and 2nd The Cure explore sad mood and violent mood, that does not make them a gothic band.
And as I said : Robert says they never were a gothic band, I assume he is the best placed to know what his band is and what it is not, don't you think so ?
Out of respect for him and for The Cure you should stop trying to label The Cure a goth band or a "used-to-be-a" goth band.
Nobody can tell you who you are, and no-one is allowed to do so ... As I said, this is called "respect". If you say you are not ... [anything] ... nobody has the right to label you the way you say you are not. That is a simple notion of elementary respect for you.
Respect is when you appreciate & acknowledge somebody else's view. I have clearly stated they are not a goth band...NOW & not once saidd they were a goth band. If you read my words I said they were "very much a part of the goth movement" which they were. I was there & know full well that goths largely embraced The Cure as one of "their own". eg. they respected The Cure. & still do to a large extent. & Robert's certainly not gone out of his way to shake off the goth imagery. He knows they appeal to goths & non-goth alike. So let's just agree to disagree shall we?
Respect is when you appreciate & acknowledge somebody else's view.
No. Respêct someone is stop forcing her/him to be what you want her/him to be. Respect someone is respect her/his identity. And if s-he says I am an alien from Saturn, then s-he is an alien from Saturn. That is the very first stage of the respect meaning.
I have clearly stated they are not a goth band...NOW & not once saidd they were a goth band.
I am sorry but I understood you said they used to be goth, especially in the early 80's. I did not understood you said goth people embraced The Cure. As I said, English is not my birth language, so it is sometimes difficult to me to understand what people try to say when they say something.
Well, goth peopley may have doing this, but I think we are okay about saying The Cure is not a goth band ans has never been, aren't we ?
Goth people can embrace whatever bands they want, that does not make the band a gothic band. Especially The Cure who always has rejected that label and many non-goth people embraced The Cure as well.
If you read my words I said they were "very much a part of the goth movement" which they were. I was there & know full well that goths largely embraced The Cure as one of "their own". eg. they respected The Cure. & still do to a large extent.
So, if you were there, you certainly remember that the goth mouvement did not exist in 1982 ... The cold scene were called Cold Wave. The name, the universe, the fantasy of the gothic movement appeared much later, in 1985.
Once again, Gary Numan was part of the Cold Wave scene, but he never was goth.
Robert's certainly not gone out of his way to shake off the goth imagery. He knows they appeal to goths & non-goth alike. So let's just agree to disagree shall we?
Sorry, but when I read something wrong, I say "This is wrong", and what you say now is obviously wrong. So ...
Respect is when you appreciate & acknowledge somebody else's view.
No. Respêct someone is stop forcing her/him to be what you want her/him to be. Respect someone is respect her/his identity. And if s-he says I am an alien from Saturn, then s-he is an alien from Saturn. That is the very first stage of the respect meaning.
I have clearly stated they are not a goth band...NOW & not once saidd they were a goth band.
I am sorry but I understood you said they used to be goth, especially in the early 80's. I did not understood you said goth people embraced The Cure. As I said, English is not my birth language, so it is sometimes difficult to me to understand what people try to say when they say something.
Well, goth peopley may have doing this, but I think we are okay about saying The Cure is not a goth band ans has never been, aren't we ?
Goth people can embrace whatever bands they want, that does not make the band a gothic band. Especially The Cure who always has rejected that label and many non-goth people embraced The Cure as well.
If you read my words I said they were "very much a part of the goth movement" which they were. I was there & know full well that goths largely embraced The Cure as one of "their own". eg. they respected The Cure. & still do to a large extent.
So, if you were there, you certainly remember that the goth mouvement did not exist in 1982 ... The cold scene were called Cold Wave. The name, the universe, the fantasy of the gothic movement appeared much later, in 1985.
Once again, Gary Numan was part of the Cold Wave scene, but he never was goth.
Robert's certainly not gone out of his way to shake off the goth imagery. He knows they appeal to goths & non-goth alike. So let's just agree to disagree shall we?
Sorry, but when I read something wrong, I say "This is wrong", and what you say now is obviously wrong. So ...
Now
Hi there !
I guessed you're French (as I am !) before I looked at your profile as you use labels the French people use to. The New Wave label was used in France for bands that would be called post punk or romantics in the UK or US at the same time. And I think the "cold wave" label was used mostly in France, but I can be wrong. The new wave label was used in New York in 1976 for bands such as the Ramones, Talking Heads or Blondie and the 1st US punk scene. And I won't talk about the Brazilian music from the 60s called Bossa Nova. (translation is quite easy to find). Even the French cinema movement "Nouvelle Vague" from the early 60s too ! Also, if I remember well from Mick Mercer's Gothic book, the "gothic" label was used for the 1st time around 1983 by a journalist who called Andy from Sex Gang Children a "gothic dwarf" , ah ah !!! I was really in the so called goth scene in the late 80s/early 90s, and nobody then would call The Cure a goth band, not even the press.
I guessed you're French (as I am !) before I looked at your profile as you use labels the French people use to. The New Wave label was used in France for bands that would be called post punk or romantics in the UK or US at the same time.
Yes, I am French, but you make a mistake by saying that French people call New Wave bands who emerged from the Pubk wave. That is wrong. In France we call "New Wave" a precise kind of music people call internationnally Synth-Pop. So for French people, Depeche Mode is a New Wave band because there are electronic sounds in their songs. The same for many other groups in the 80's. But the way I am talking about New Wave is the English one : the groups that were born from the Punk movement.
And I think the "cold wave" label was used mostly in France, but I can be wrong.
Sorry again but you are, regarding the English newspapers that used the term.
The new wave label was used in New York in 1976 for bands such as the Ramones, Talking Heads or Blondie and the 1st US punk scene.
I don't know what terms are used in New York but facts are Talking Heads, Blondie weren't born from the Punk wave, they already played at that time, they did not came after.
Now, Ramones are a Punk Rock band.
And I won't talk about the Brazilian music from the 60s called Bossa Nova. (translation is quite easy to find).
Please, don't mix everything. The Bossa Nova I know very well as my mother is an hardcore fan of it and of Brazil, does not have any link with what is called "New Wave" in the UK ...
If you want to reference everytime those words are used, you can talk about "La Nouvelle Vague" of the French cinema movies, and "La Movida Madrileña" who was defined as the Spanish new wave groups, the one who emmerged after the Franco years... But let's not stray ... We're talking about the English New Wave, not the French one, nor the New Yorker one, nor the Brazilian one, nor the Spanish one or others 😉
Even the French cinema movement "Nouvelle Vague" from the early 60s too !
Okay, you finally talked about it too 😂😂😂😂😂
Also, if I remember well from Mick Mercer's Gothic book, the "gothic" label was used for the 1st time around 1983 by a journalist who called Andy from Sex Gang Children a "gothic dwarf" , ah ah !!!
Maybe, but Wikipedia disagrees with you on that point. But as I said previously, Wikipedia makes many mistakes. So one point for you ... And then ? 😉
I was really in the so called goth scene in the late 80s/early 90s, and nobody then would call The Cure a goth band, not even the press.