Assuming it's not your own recording, what would you do? Poll is set to allow a max of 2 answers per person. I have an inkling this could be divisive, so let's keep it as civil as possible
Post by nausearockpig on Jan 6, 2017 13:43:14 GMT 1
Geez that's a tough one.
On the one hand, the recordings are out there on the internet and once there, really are everyone's property. It's not like the taper "owns" the recording and a remasterer would be breaching licensing and copyright by putting his/her own version of the bootleg out there...
but......
on the other hand, the bootleg is not the work of the remasterer in the first instance so what right do they have to change the work of another person?
I think it comes down to common courtesy. If you want to create a remaster, ask the taper. "Most" filesets I've looked at do NOT have a "please do not remaster" comment on them.
Great topic Steve.
.........Aaaaaannnnd BOOM!! I'm at 100%. Winner
Last Edit: Jan 6, 2017 13:44:21 GMT 1 by nausearockpig: to point out I'm a winner, not a loser......
If you have a lead on Brisbane 21 August 1992 - CT version, for the love of Bob, let me know. Please!
I would go with the tapers wishes basically no matter what - and that was my take since before I started taping myself. I think the person who taped the show put enough effort, expense and in some cases sacrifice into getting the show taped; and without that effort - there wouldn't be stuff to 'remaster' in the first place. Some tapers are OK with modifications - others would only let people whose work they know touch their files, some would want stuff untouched - and in my view - this should be entirely their call. Or else 'go and tape it yourself' - I did hear that one enough. I usually solicit help before I release anything - and once it is released - I consider it final. I work with other people's files when (and only when) asked - and always before the release.
There are about 4 versions of the Paris phone (!) recording circulates - none of them asked or even considered asking the taper even when I offered the info - all versions suck so badly while doubling and tripling and quadrupling in size - one has to wonder what (if anything) was going through the minds of those people.
I think I should be adding 'do not remaster without....' to every tape I release from now on. Lol
And yes - we have no control what happens with our tapes once it's out there; internet is 'a wild world' (credit: Nick Cave) - but one hopes for some shred of decency. Naively. I strongly prefer my releases to run on dime because at least there the question of 'who released it?" or 'who the taper is' is resolved with a single click. Once it's elsewhere - finding the person who seeded a file set is several steps removed.
I'm going with option 3. My parents taught me many things, but one of the most important things was manners. If the taper is okay with the tinkering, having even listened to it before it's been unleashed, then fair enough. I have, in the past, re EQ-d a couple of Sisters shows that I was at & I did ask the taper first & made it clear to him that he should be the one to share it, as the basis was his work & only then, if he wanted to. He was actually really pleased with the job I did & shared it a short while later. Had he not liked it, I would have kept it for my own playback gear. As inez has mentioned, tapers will often seek help from people they know have done a nice job in the past, as just because they've pointed a mic at a show, it doesn't necessarily mean they know how to make the result shine the way they would like. Sometimes the recordings need no work at all, but there are certainly occasions when they do.These are live shows remember & that means lots of variables. I, myself am struggling with a new 24bit transfer of my Brighton 85 recording & would welcome an experienced audio guru's input. I would, however, be very unthrilled if someone just took the original, messed about with it & posted it without even running it by me first. I think I'd be equally as unthrilled if I had not liked whatever alterations were made & they went ahead & shared it regardless. I do feel that SBDs/ broadcasts are slightly different. Especially in this day & age of HD & multi-channel playback. To have the option of a remuxed multi-channel audio track from a HD stream or even a TV broadcast is is quite nice. Even nicer if the original option is also available.
Problem is though, the taper has not respected the wishes of the band and/or venue, so the taper doesn't really have a basis for for having their wishes honoured?
I'm also new to this so my views are still forming but as it stands, I don't really see my recordings as my property as such.
That said, I wouldn't deliberately go against a taper's wishes.
on the other hand, the bootleg is not the work of the remasterer in the first instance so what right do they have to change the work of another person?...
This is the problem. As I just posted, you could argue that the orginal taper doesn't "own" anything. There is no right/wrong black/white?
As Steve said, it's more about manners than anything else.
That's a pretty good point & I think one that the tapers who do share probably agree with to an extent. There are bands that actually allow open taping & I know from the past that The Cure are way past caring about bootlegs. They know they'll be taped & they have even used tracks on their deluxe releases & on the Curiosity cassette. What many people often don't see is that many tapers do it as a hobby. Yes, there are those who want a souvenir of their night out at their favourite band, but there are a surprising number who don't necessarily care so much about that. They employ an incredible amount of mic, battery box, recorder, position, levels etc. combinations to see if they can pull of a dream capture. A lot of this stuff is often home made too. If you can remember ham radio enthusiasts back in the day, it's not dissimilar to that really. & when they hit a "magic" combo, they become somewhat legendary. Malcolm Beaton is a good example from the 80's & 90's & people would use him as a benchmark with a view to get better & better captures. Without wanting to sound off, you & I are what I would call "casual tapers" in comparison. We're more than happy with the result, but we haven't gone in armed with half of radio shack taped to our torsos like some people do. Some tapers don't care if somebody fiddles with their "product" . Even if they've invested $100 or $1000 in their gear, they are still effectively giving it to everyone for the cost of the bandwidth it takes to download it. I think that alone deserves a bit of acknowledgement & respect & that's something that berk at cure fud all certainly hasn't got. It's nice to see here we're a lot more considerate in that respect & I hope the more seasoned tapers here see that & continue to help when mere mortals like myself need a pointer now & then.
Problem is though, the taper has not respected the wishes of the band and/or venue, so the taper doesn't really have a basis for for having their wishes honoured?
I'm also new to this so my views are still forming but as it stands, I don't really see my recordings as my property as such.
That said, I wouldn't deliberately go against a taper's wishes.
that's actually not quite true. Most artists are indifferent to supportive of audience recordings. Those who are not are listed on dime quite clearly, which is why you don't find Prince or King Crimson or Jack White there. Or Bjork VIDEO specifically. There are also specific venues and events that are on the 'do not' list and you get basically banned from dime by breaking those rules. Some artists (David Byrne comes to mind) had a recording played before the show encouraging people to tape. Venues are playing a big boss having no say in this whatsoever. In fact, there were confrontations between the artists saying 'you can' and the venue security harassing people - so the artists had to actually hold back security. Happened at the Radiohead Berlin shows in 2012 for example.
I have dealt with Radiohead a fair amount to the point of getting their help in releasing our audience-sourced projects and for the Roseland DVD in 2011 they provided their own SBD because I felt that the tape we had was not of good enough quality.
In most cases the artists' position is: if no profit to be made - they are fine. That was the condition with every project I got involved with.
I generally like the remasters people do. I usually find them to be nice upgrades to already good recordings. I get that for some it can seem like it's 'disrespectful' to the taper and I can also see how tapers might chaff at the idea of having their recordings messed with. However (and this is mostly because i have yet to encounter a remaster that wasn't an improvement) I'm ok with the idea of people taking this on with our without the taper's blessing. As long as nobody is selling anything, it's all good to me. Once it's on the internet, like it or not, it's in the public domain.
Let's also not pretend that this is a particularly rampant problem. Out of the 1500+ cure shows, how many have been "remastered" and how many of those made the recordings worse?
Problem is though, the taper has not respected the wishes of the band and/or venue, so the taper doesn't really have a basis for for having their wishes honoured?
I'm also new to this so my views are still forming but as it stands, I don't really see my recordings as my property as such.
That said, I wouldn't deliberately go against a taper's wishes.
...Most artists are indifferent to supportive of audience recordings...
How do you measure that? There are x thousand artists. An assumption is not the same as a fact (clearly).
That's a pretty good point & I think one that the tapers who do share probably agree with to an extent. There are bands that actually allow open taping & I know from the past that The Cure are way past caring about bootlegs. They know they'll be taped & they have even used tracks on their deluxe releases & on the Curiosity cassette. What many people often don't see is that many tapers do it as a hobby. Yes, there are those who want a souvenir of their night out at their favourite band, but there are a surprising number who don't necessarily care so much about that. They employ an incredible amount of mic, battery box, recorder, position, levels etc. combinations to see if they can pull of a dream capture. A lot of this stuff is often home made too. If you can remember ham radio enthusiasts back in the day, it's not dissimilar to that really. & when they hit a "magic" combo, they become somewhat legendary. Malcolm Beaton is a good example from the 80's & 90's & people would use him as a benchmark with a view to get better & better captures. Without wanting to sound off, you & I are what I would call "casual tapers" in comparison. We're more than happy with the result, but we haven't gone in armed with half of radio shack taped to our torsos like some people do. Some tapers don't care if somebody fiddles with their "product" . Even if they've invested $100 or $1000 in their gear, they are still effectively giving it to everyone for the cost of the bandwidth it takes to download it. I think that alone deserves a bit of acknowledgement & respect & that's something that berk at cure fud all certainly hasn't got. It's nice to see here we're a lot more considerate in that respect & I hope the more seasoned tapers here see that & continue to help when mere mortals like myself need a pointer now & then.
I kinda get all of that Steve but what you're describing here is more of the how and why. That, I have no problem with, and that's not the bone of contention (unless I've misunderstood the topic). What I am querying is the should or should not, and the ownership. It's not exactly intellectual property is it?